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AvA Group Training

Curadh de na Fhiaigh
Kennethan
Curadh de na Fhiaigh
  • ESO: @Kennethan
Posted On: 04/19/2014 at 01:02 PM
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Last night was a blast, but it showed that if we didn't have the numbers we would have been hurting against the opposition.

Too many peeps not following group instructions and when tactics were being executed, the quickness of what was needed meant the group/team was ready.

I was wondering if we were going to practice/train using some key "plays" that when Fog says "Ohama", we know just what to do. :)

I am an engineer, not a tactician but willing to learn if called lead/help.

Thanks.

Last Edited on: 04/19/2014 at 01:04 PM
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Response:

Draoi de na Griobhta Bán
Kitty
Draoi de na Griobhta Bán
  • GW2: Kitty.6219
Replied On: 04/19/2014 at 01:24 PM PDT
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Yes, we need more training, more people listening to raidcall orders, following the orders in the group chats, and we need to learn how to work as one unit, an oiled machine that spells doom and destruction to our enemies! >:3

I run with Cayt in the (pacific time) mornings, she is an awesome leader and a very nurturing teacher!

"Be the player you want to meet".- Foghladha
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Curadh de na Faolchu
Aunvyrae
Curadh de na Faolchu
Replied On: 04/19/2014 at 07:43 PM PDT
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War is more than just following orders. The reason they train Combat arms so rigorously is because you get into a situation and you stop thinking you just react. Unfortunately I don't see this type of efficiency being possible. it takes months if not years to get like. Trust me I know I spent 5 years in the Infantry and towards the end training became more of a refresher course in the correct way of doing things than learning.

 

That being said. There are two things that I had problems with last night and most nights I run in Fog's events.

1 and the biggest one... there is way to much chatter going on in raid call. I know it's a game, I know it's suppose to be fun, but if you can't hear the orders that are being given, you already failed. As one thing that was learned in the Civil War. If half your unit retreats while the other half charges, you are going to be slaughtered. So there needs to be a bit more restraint from all the chatter going on.

 

2 Adaptation, one thing that was starting to annoy me was our inability to adapt. The people we where going against where using that inability to dominate us for a long time. Yes, when we got them in the open there really wasn't much they could do, but when we got into close quarters like we where last night we need to be able to have groups split off and either make another hole, or bring in "artillery support". One of the things that other countries have said about the US military is no matter how much you study their documents to learn the strategies you will never actually learn how to beat them. The reason for this and this was stated by the Russian military is the US military never ever follows it's own strategies when they get into combat. I feel we need to adopt this sort of thinking. never do what is expected, always stay on the move, and never get tunnel vision for a goal.

 

3 there is a lot of confusion when you hear 3-4 group leaders saying my group come to me, go hear, go there. For one, we all don't know everyone's voices and two it's very hard to see where me is when you have 16 chevrons spread all over the place. We either need to assign people to certain groups and leaders that way anyone that comes out for these events will hear their leaders voice and recognize that it's them they are talking to or one of the things I loved about vent was that in huge organized battles like this is the leaders of each group sat in a channel together and sat in a another channel with their group. That way when the leader gave orders it was passed down through the chain of command and the only thing you heard where orders that only pertained to you. As an ex soldier that has seen combat I can tell you hearing 2-3 orders from 2-3 different sources in the heat of battle is very very confusing.

 

So I guess there was 3 things that I had issues with.

 

With all that being said, I have had a blast in the AvA lakes with Fog and others. It's a real joy to be able to pvp on such a mass scale with a bit of organization behind it. I thing Fog and the other leaders do their best when trying to herd their cats and you really can't ask for more. I think we have room to improve and I think it will come, but we need to put in some work to bettering that organization, listening, and following. To many people kinda hanging out in lala land even when orders are being given and reaction to orders is a bit slow at times.



» Edited on: 2014-04-19 19:57:27

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Lorgaire de na Sailetheach Donn
Syphon
Lorgaire de na Sailetheach Donn
Replied On: 04/20/2014 at 03:54 AM PDT

Very good response Aunvyare.   I haven't been able to participate in one of fog's runs, due to the time, it starts around my bedtime.

That being said, I will definitely say, if you organize a group into seperate raid groups, each raid group needs a leader, and they need to be in seperate channels so they only hear from their raid group, while like you said, if possible, have the raid leaders also in a seperate chat channel so the leaders can communicate. 

With seperate raid groups, this should give you more flexibility to have one group hit this target, another group hit this target, another group support this group, and so forth.  It would definitely create more tactical flexibility especially if the groups are able to adapt as well, and stay together on a target.   Retreat is never a good thing, but a tactical withdrawal can make the difference especially if it is treated as a lure.   Communication is the key to success but also training practices would be a great idea.  

First off, the training would get people to work together, know the objectives, terrain, and tactics.   Second having a way to organize certain people into specific raid groups.   This would allow those people to work with the same people each and every time.  I know it might seem like a move towards clicks, but in a pvp setting that is like a military action, this would allow that group of people to get to know how everyone else plays, they will learn to work together, work of each other, and build synergy.  They would also get to understand how everyone in that group thinks better, and would become a better cog in the machine.   The military does this, you work with squad mates, and get to know each other, you work out your indifferences, and when it mattes, you work as more than just a team.  

I will say from experience, this works because I have had dungeons in other games, that always went smoother when I went with the same people, because I got to understand them.  We knew how each other worked, so their were no arguments, and many fights almost felt like second nature, even when those fights were new.  The same strategy would work well in AvA because its about your alliance, your allies, your team, your group, and your friends taking objectives, not just scoring kills.  

I would love to get more AvA in, its just I can't make it to the schedule times due to my sleep schedule.  It is also alot harder to stay focus on that content when I am busy working out quests, trying to get those levels, and working my crafting so I can keep up with my own gear.   

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Saighdiuir de na Capall
Nosfuratu
Saighdiuir de na Capall
Replied On: 04/20/2014 at 06:39 AM PDT
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Just thought I would add something to the conversation.

I know you can't solve everything with addons, but there are now 2 addons that will be very good for us to use

1.  http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info284-GroupLeader.html

-- This addon puts an asterisk (*) on the map with your group leaders current location

 

2.  http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info279-GroupLeaderCompassMarker.html

-- This addons adds a custom marker on your compass HUD element with where your leader is.  

 

Both of these combined will make it a bit easier to coordinate with your leader.  I've been using for a few days now and it has definately been a boon.

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Ban Seaimpin de na Aracos
Alana
Ban Seaimpin de na Aracos
Replied On: 04/20/2014 at 08:46 AM PDT
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Too bad there isn't an addon that designates a different color chevron to the different groups. That would be a huge help in my opinion.

I wasn't in Fog's AvA last night, but was in Pookha's Harbingers of Light run yesterday afternoon. We had two groups and I honestly think that we did fairly well against all the VR10's that we came up against on Hopesfire. I love being a part of pvp that is strategy based and not a ganking fest to earn pvp points.  I think that continued participation helps to understand all the dynamics of AvA and the fun of it, is learning by doing.

I also think that EVERY participant should be in RC as it is really too timely to type in chat in the thick of things!

Anyways, that's my two cents. :-)

Happy Easter!



» Edited on: 2014-04-20 15:19:42

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Ban Curadh de na Fhiaigh
Mystriss Freya
Ban Curadh de na Fhiaigh
Replied On: 04/20/2014 at 10:42 AM PDT
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I'm actually going to disagree with the separate channels for each group idea.  If we want to coordinate such a massive force we need to know what each group is doing and how it's going, who needs support for their objective, etc - These are the calls that Fog makes.  

On a more 'personal' note, I really don't like the idea of running in separate channels because I often run my own little groups and go where needed without direction - if so-n-so's group is having trouble at x, I want to know so I can bring my support over there.  If so-n-so's group has x wrapped up, I'm going to go somewhere else, etc.  My groups are typically not large enough to merit their own 'channel' or 'major objective' and I refuse to lead large groups ever again, so basically if GSCH is in different channels then my posse won't know what's going on and won't be able to help as much.  I think this might be true for some of our Tuatha guilds (now and later on) as well.

Everyone being in the same channel works, we just need a bit more practice with it is all :)   A couple bits of advice;

"Clear Channel" if you're a leader and have something important, say it.  We should all know what it means, and everyone should respect it as best they can.  Accidents happen, folks get excited, but in general "Clear Channel" means you hold your thought for a minute.

Group names, use them and pay attention to them, and I mean everyone - if you spot enemies on your groups six then SAY your group leaders name; this will clear up a LOT of the confusion we have in raidcall.  You should know who's group you are in, if you don't, then ask in your group chat right off the bat.

Social chatter is awesome, welcome, and wanted, but maybe type instead of talk when 'srs bsns' is happening in Raidcall.  You probably won't ever hear me speaking in raidcall, I only pipe up if I spot enemies and I don't think anyone else noticed ( though I'm often next to Fog and he's got eagle eyes too. )   Anyway, I yap all the time in PvP, in guild, in group, in whispers.  Also please do not misunderstand this, I'm not saying don't ask questions and stuff in raidcall, I'm just saying maybe don't have an in depth conversation about what abilities to take during AvA Club night - take it to guild/group/whisper/raidcall chat.

 

Personally I thought things were alright, sure there was a little talking over, but it was minor given how many folks we had out.  Objectives were taken, players died, and fun was had.  That is really all that matters :) 

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